I said I wanted expanded game play mechanics, While having the TS1 core intact. I never said "HEY I WANTED IT THE EXACT SAME GAME NO QUESTIONS". I hope that is clear now, Jack.

I'm sure Luzz is quite happy with the mess he's made of the game, I mean after all it is a reflection of his work and ideas so why wouldn't he be emotional about it? Same goes with you, with the bad ideas you advocated and held dear. However, the reality of the situation is others are not happy with this game Jack. Furthermore, Jack, you have pretty much done nothing except deflected all criticism, talked poorly to people who had good detailed posts, and further more reduced a GLARING problem with summoner down to "LuLz peepz r just bad k?"

Hell even the biggest zealot of this map, Sacreuir, admitted that the summoner was broken and needs fixing.

You want the bottom line: TS2 is not Temple Siege. Here is another one for you, I think it's just a couple of randoms outside of UU who just want to put their badly thought out ideas into a game they know nothing about. Why is there not a single pro on that dev team? Or a tourney champion, or even a committee of pros giving advice? Get Moose or CAFG on board. There is a difference for guys playing the game and developing the game. This is TS2 right? So why does it have less features from TS1?

This is not a step forward, it is a step backward.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jul 29 2013, 10:29 am by NudeRaider. Reason: removed unnecessary rudeness

Well... there is. The lobby can be created with one of these 3 modes: 5vs5, 4vs4, 3vs3 (unless something was removed because of the bugs the editor had).

How would it work if you chose 3vs3 with 10 people ingame? :X randomly kick 2? How would 5vs5 alter the game when you are just 6 people?
Doesn't make sense.

Since this is turning into a big dick measuring contest, I defer all of my judgment to Jack and Loveless.

I'm surprised Ahli and Co. are being so positive about your suggestions after you berate their game in ways they probably disagree it has problems with.

I would like to just say that building units for probes is not yet implemented but it will be. Also, swapping spawn lanes is also not yet implemented, but it will be.

Also, a return to the original spells of the game would (I feel, as I have already tried that) not feel right. I have legitimately already tried it. Completely and down to the finest details I created assassin, and multiple other heroes with their EXACT same spells and effects from TS1. I also made the spells triggered by a gateway. All of these things just did not feel right in the SC2 game engine. Also, the game cannot be completely replicated, the stun system from TS1 I found was nearly impossible to replicate, as was the creation of Mutant's l2 because units can no longer stack on each other. All in all, a replication of the original abilities did not feel in any way like the original. This is also in part to the effects the original had with all the death animations, and I have tried to replicate this in TS2 to some extent (Assault l1, Medic l4, DM l2 and l4, etc). I feel like this had brought the game closer to the TS1 feel. I'm sorry, but if you want me to give you the map, then will do. You and Otis can work on the TS:C version together, but trust me, the original spells won't work with the SC2 game engine.

On a different note, you call things bad but still do not give evidence to support your case. Perhaps a few replays of Assault kicking your butt, or of you playing Assault kicking other people's butts would suffice. Also, I feel like you are playing an outdated version... for one Assassin no longer has decapitate, he has a ranged spell that causes the enemy to take double damage (I feel like the base damage and upgrade damage of this spell is WAY to high and I apologize for this) however, the debuff applied to the opponents hit is, in my opinion, very fulfilling and makes me feel like a true assassin striking down foes.

As to the claim the spells don't have utility, I will have to disagree once again, while they may not come up to the standards of a die hard TS1 fan in which most of the spells WERE utility (Because it would have been too much of a hassle to spawn in damaging units for every single spell), I feel like each spell can be used in many different ways.

For example:
Archer - Can knock people back with his l0, if used in unison with his l1, he can launch people away from himself or allies. Utility.

Assassin - l1 on hit effect silences enemies so they cannot immediately retaliate. If used against a LM, they may waste their l1 on defending nothing, allowing allies to jump on that opportunity. Utility.
l2 stuns enemies rendering them unable to attack (Effectively shutting down Assault's DPS) and reducing them to 1 movement speed. Utility.
l3 increases the assassin's damage dealt to enemies, making it easier to kill them. Not sure if this is utility, but I'm pretty sure it is.

Assault - l1 sucks in enemies, making them unable to escape. Utility.
l3 stuns enemies, reducing their movement speed to 1. Utility.

Dark Mage - l0 makes enemies unable to deal damage. Utility.
l1 Removes targets mana. Utility.
l2 Roots enemies. Utility.
l3 can reduce damage dealt to an ally or herself. Utility.

Light Mage - l1 can trap enemies. Utility if used correctly. Also makes him invulnerable. Utility.
l2 can knock enemies away from an ally or himself, if used correctly can also be used to knock enemies into himself. Utility.
l3 Can be used to get into and out of combat, making the LM very effective in offensive and defensive combat. Utility.
l4 Reduces units movement to 1. Utility.

Mech - l0 slows enemies, and their missiles. Can save an enemies life against summy eggs or medic disable. Utility.

Medic - l0 removes debuffs on target. Utilty.
l2 disables enemies. Utility.

Mutant - l3 reduces enemy movement speed to 1. Utility.

Spec Ops - l1 reduces enemy movement speed to 1. Utility.
l2 Gizmo can reduce enemy movement speed to 1. Utility.
l4 Can shield allies. Utility.

Summoner - l2 reduces enemy movement speed to 1. Utility, can enable a surround by lings.
l3 if upgraded reduces enemy movement speed while in the cloud. Utility.

Volt - l1 knocks enemies away, can be used with an ally to save him, or to push enemies into a trap. Utility.
l2 pulls enemies. Utility.
Also, Volt cannot use abilities while l4 is active or charging.

Warrior - l2 can trap enemies. Utility.
l3 reduces enemy movement speed to 1. Utility.

Pretty sure dazes, knockbacks, roots, slows, disables/silences, and all that stuff are utility, I'm also pretty sure that heals and teleports are also utility, but I left them out because I wasn't sure and wanted to focus on the abilities that could be combined with an ally's ability's to create synergy between the heroes.

Ok so. Every single one of the heroes we have created has utility. Nearly all abilities can be used with another hero's ability to increase the effectiveness of each one. I still don't see what the problem is... spells have utility. I believe the problem stems from the fact the the utility spells now also deal damage. Even if that damage is only 20, it still deals damage. Very few spells in the game don't deal damage, DM is the main one that doesn't do damage. Would a possible reduction/removal of damage from most abilities please you?

On Summy, I believe we can buff him more. How about, while his summons in inside the leash they gain increased attack speed and movement speed, so good players can us the leash to their advantage instead of their disadvantage. I have tried playing him a few times, and I kind of agree that he does suck, but high level players can still beat the crap out of enemies with him. He needs to be leveled out so that lower level players can still use him, but not injure the higher level of play that others have achieved. I have seen replays of warriors being beaten by a summoner, so summy doesn't suck THAT bad.

Please come up with evidence before you go shooting down the things we have created. I have been asking for community ideas from the beginning, and only now do people decide to step in and actually give ideas, so I am VERY sorry for all the trouble we have caused you, but ultimately, if you believe the game is in a state of disarray, it is your fault.

~Luzz

It doesn't seem like anyone would want this. It's one of the ways in which the game can be improved upon without changing the core fundamentals.

Yes, after trying it out (Though it brought back good memories) it did not feel right in SC2, so I swapped to instant abilities that were casted by the hero himself. If did not particularly like those either... if you can make targeted abilities, why not make them?

No, usually the people who are casuals and randoms tend to have bad ideas. Not saying ALL the time, but majority of the time yes they do. People who are pro tend to have a better understanding and grasp the mechanics and feel better than the average casual. Not saying every pro has GREAT ideas but they aren't the horrible dribble that comes out of a randoms brain either.

And the fact you defer your judgement to a guy who says things like this:

Raise some eyebrows and raises questions about your own judgement.

I don't even have the energy is go through all that point by point. If you think you game is full of utility awesome. Great job man your map is just awesome.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jul 29 2013, 4:31 am by HighGuyInBankai.

Okay HERE I AM. I thought the greatness of TS could never be revitalized but now I'm determined to bring the legend back.

First of all, respect to whoever has given their effort to bringing out a new version of TS. Regardless of the outcome you guys made an attempt. With a prestigious game like Temple Siege, however, it is going to generate hate when at least the deep game-play is not kept intact.

Ok down to business. When working with this game it is important to understand why the hell made the game Temple Siege?

These were some of the reasons:

1. The absolute focus on hero dissimilarity:
How did this work? The only heroes who were RELIANT on attack damage upgrades for their niche were Mech and Mutant (and to a lesser extent Archer). AND THEY STILL PLAYED COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

What about the rest?

Assassin: No dps spells (besides NICHE ult)
Warrior: SCALED HEAVILY WITH ARMOR/SHIELD/HP. His L2 scaling was incredibly negligent in the hindsight of things.
Spec OPS: NONE unless we count the later version sniper which was a skillshot implemented quite well.
ASSAULT: GODDAM NONEEEEEEEEE. The best part? People calling a hero with no damage spells "Overpowered". Goddam, that's what I call real gameplay balance.
SUMMONER: Goddam Summoner was an entire animal of his own. He was perfect. More on why he was so important later on.
DARK MAGE: 0 DAMAGE FROM ALL SPELLS BESIDES A L4 WHICH WAS A TRAP UTILITY FIRSTMOST AT ANY POINT OF THE GAME.
LIGHT MAGE: In my opinion the only hero who probably suffered from BW limitations and needed change (and by change i need minimal fix ups just to make him viable at TOP level play). Yes he was a goddam DPS beast but that was only because his damage had to be godly just to be viable at all. TS2 seems to give every hero 'lazy light mage balance syndrome' LLMBS. No more LLMBS its a serious disease killing noobs each day.

Seriously tho, he was a good counter pick in certain situations.

ARCHER: "WHATS THIS ICEMAN YOU TALK ABOUT NO DAMAGE SPELLS IN TS WTF ARCHER??"
Here we go back to any dps in this entire game feeling more like a niche
What the hell has Archer got? His close range muta spam. In fact one of the most deadliest DPS spells is a double edged sword of huge windup and being close range. In my opinion was low tier without a team or partner built for him. TWO of the biggest dps heroes in the game being low tier? wtf how to win without damage??
MEDIC: Medics healed stuff and shit in this game.
VOLT: Utility boss. Stuns stuns stuns stuns stuns and a steroid/escape ult. Spells were actually to stun rather than do damage (which they didn't).



2. Pacing:
There actually felt like an early game, mid game and late game. As my point before, the game was never about scaling HUGEWTFDPS spells. Killing someone actually felt like it took calculated decisions rather than spell spam. The opening "base rush" was akin to choosing heroes in LoL or DOTA for laning phase. You had to be smart in realizing who would go where and which lanes heroes would strictly belong to. There was at least some depth to how things played out. Send Mutant Mech or Archer Top? Probably free kill for other team. I'm not speaking in absolutes, but there was a lot of deep thinking in TS to consider. Armor worked and was very viable early, and even mid game. Things aren't about one shotting with spell spam so armor was indeed a necessity every time.



3. Hard counters (including how unit types worked) was a integral part to gameplay.

"BUT ICEMAN HOW CAN HARD COUNTERS MAKE A GAME BALANCED? THAT SHIT KRAY!"

This is where the game came down to. How the hell you made a team comp, and factors to consider when doing so. You have summoner be able to shit on heroes like Dark Mage, Mech and Volt? But what about when they have Mutant, Spec OPS or Assault on their team as well? Damn things are suddenly a LOT harder, and you see these hard counters are nothing more than soft counters that are inputting strategy and balance.

Assassin is a hero that can be unstoppable if a team consists of something like Light Mage, Mech and Warrior. But what if you throw in a Spec Ops/Mutant/Assault/Summoner/DarkMage/Medic on the team instead? Suddenly things aren't a hard counter anymore and is more focused on how things play out.

An example of how the meta worked was needing every comp with some kind of 'spawn killer'. Someone who can clear waves/summoner lings/reavers/spawns with efficiency. Someone who would work? Spec Ops/Mutant/Assault/Warrior etc. You get the idea. If you decide to pick some shitty comp who can be countered by a swarm of summoner lings then yeah, maybe its the fault of the players not on the balance of Summoner. Of course other comps can work, but blindly picking them without thought of how it can be countered is just walking into a noob trap. I can talk ages about TS but I hope I've covered the main points I'm trying to articulate across.

Everything had their goddam hard counter, it was this that made the game work. Solution? You guys can continue with that version but I would like to see a team work on reviving on the old TS aspects, or at least discussion on how things can be improved because I believe it's possible to bring back with enough effort.

I don't need to speak for Jack, I'll let his abilities speak for themselves.

And HP ling could do that, because of l1 + l3.

+1 to Ice's post.

5v5 with such limited hero selection and no one choosing dual pool creates such a disparity in play. Imagine a team with Volt/Assault/War/(insert two more)
It's a call for 3v3. It just makes sense and feels right.

Assimilators have lost viability too. Easy to kill and costly to build. More about this later though.

Luzz, these suggestions are reasonable. Ice is the real deal when it comes to TS.



A good bat, and one who has control of him and each of his spells down to a tee, will run circles around ling.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 30 2013, 10:40 pm by NinjaOtis.

It sounds as though all damage on spells that used to not have damage needs to be removed so that players don't just use them for spam and damage and actually have to use the spell for the stun. Problem is I like quite a few of the damaging abilities... But I'll go with it, in order to slow the game down.

Sims are higher risk and higher reward now, you get way more minerals from them and since it constantly flows rather than comes in spurts, the money is also much more reliable. I explain that far too often and people always ask: "Why did you nerf the income from sims compared to TS1?" or "I can't leave a sim alone for a few minutes without it dying, can you buff their health?"

Most of the things said over the last few days I wont even touch on because everyone seems to think the intention was to create a direct port of TS1. That's not what TS2 is at all. If it was, the team would have called it Temple Siege. Not Temple Siege 2.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jul 30 2013, 4:13 am by LoveLess.

Don't forget how much effort it takes to get a map out there and maintain it. GJ luzz on sticking with it!

One thing I have noticed after playing ~10 times is that there isn't as much counterplay in TS2 as TS1.

For example, mutant L2 in was strong enough to instakill, but most damage was easily avoidable with even just slight movement. Contrast this to the TS2 mutant L2 which autohits as long as the mutant is close enough. Similarily, LM L1 has no counterplay now; it traps when it hits, so there's no option to move.

It may seem fair to remove all of the 'rigged' things in TS1 such as volt/bat chain stun, LM reaver spam ( ;_; cooldowns ), and med fh, but that variation of gameplay is what made TS1 so fun. It's better to try to balance with even more 'rigged' gameplay than to remove it altogether.

This is what I am getting at, anyone who played competitively knew they were already high risk. High reward. Why because there were heroes who were very good against assimilators. The fact of the matter is statements like this show why you need people like Iceman and Otis giving advice to the development team. The assimilatorsw in this version are just something you do when you are already winning. That's it. They are not gamebreaking, just an after thought in this version. For example anyone knows assiming the map took Assim + pylon + 1 or 2 cannons depending on who it was against. That is a significant investment. High risk for high reward. I emphasize CLEARLY someone making statements about "Assimilators are higher risk + higher reward" didn't realize from the outset they already required a significant investment to keep safe. So why ramp it up EVEN further? This is a decesion that made no sense!

Going along the lines of gameplay experience:


This is NOT a flame. This is NOT arbitrary rudeness:

This is a prime example of why people with pro experience are needed on the development team, and especially on the boards. I mean seriously L1+L3 hp ling vs Bat, it's a fucking joke. Clearly your strategy and game play ideas and perception are clearly out of wack. Furthermore, Jack had been exposed previously on the boards are someone who clearly had no grasp on the fundamentals of gameplay and balance. He was exposed by pro players. Now why would you even have this person on your development team. You expect good gameplay balance when someone like this didn't even understand the basic funadmentals of the game, furthermore you are receiving input from people who support said incorrect strategies and game play advice. How much should you listen to this person, much less some random supporting bad ideas and saying "everything is great in this game". My overall point is:

You should take a real hard look at the game when you have people who have incorrect and skewed views about the core gameplay in general are supporting your ideas and claim everything is great. It's a big deal Iceman16 just came back and basically said the game needs a change. Otis has advocated as well. Of course the gameplay needs tweaking but also the people you are taking advice from deserve a good hard look now as well. Are these people that you REALLY want to be taking advice from? Seriously?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 1 2013, 1:10 am by HighGuyInBankai.

Ignoring everything else you said, I don't think you realize that game development and balance is totally different from the skillset needed to be good at a particular map. Just because Iceman and Otis were good at TS1 does not mean a) that they are good at TS2, and b) that they are qualified to give advice to the development team. The only advice that top players should be giving to the development team is "this feels imba to me", not "I think that this part of your game design sucks".
You should learn to read, he's talking about HP ling L1 and L3 against mines of marines. I don't even remember where you got that quote of mine from, but ling does beat bat 1v1 every time, and if there was heaps of latency you could easily kill mediocre fbats when they try to dropship kill you moment you add a team mate in everything changes, which is why 1v1 situations are mostly irrelevant when it comes to balance, whether TS1 or TS2. I don't know what exposing you're talking about. I was the best player at TS2 when I played, don't know if anyone would argue with that, and I was one of the best at TS1 for most of the time I played, probably top 50. I'm qualified to talk about balance in that sense, and my game and map development experience somewhat qualified me to also give advice on other things to the development team. You on the other hand are some nobody that I've never heard of, who comes into this forum flaming and acting like you're all something. Unless you're another one of maxx's smurfs, if your TS1 name was HighGuyInBankai then I've never heard of you and I doubt anyone who was anyone has either, so don't try to bring in some old "I was ts1 pro bow to me plz" argument either.

You do realize that I had almost no input on the TS2 team right? Like I said before, don't blame me for stuff that isn't my fault. TS2 didn't take the direction I wanted it to either.

Iceman wasn't that good in TS1, I'd be surprised if he's any good at TS2, it's not a big deal that he came in and said that TS2 should be TS1 but in SC2, it's a nothing. They're not taking advice from me, as far as I know there's like 2 guys who never played TS1 much, and UU, and I think Bloodreavez on the TS2 team. Stop strawmanning. Also, it's fine if people all over the spectrum of ability give their opinions because it gives a perspective from the people just starting at the game, so even if noobs are giving their advice that's fine. Being a "pro player" doesn't automatically qualify you for jack (hehe see what I did there).

Wait, what? Didn't iceman and Maxx play in tournaments and win some in TS? I just know he kinda destroyed me whenever i played him and it wasnt like i was bad at the game at all.

Well duh, people arent asking for the exact same game, just to keep the feel intact. Things such as changing the dropship to have an ability to drop stun bombs instead of requiring unloading of a unit of course is gonna be better. Changing three of his spells, however, is what people are upset about. Sure some things arent gonna translate over well, and sure, some spells may need to be tweaked to feel the right way, but you're using this as an argument to move away from fundamentals, and the argument doesnt work at all.

We all knew it wasnt going to be exactly the same and that things would have to change, that isnt the issue. The issue is that while things changed, they changed away from what made TS fun, and you don't seem to understand that,

Maxx was the key person in the team though, Iceman and dog[act] were like the sidecar to his motorbike. Maxx for all his personality problems was an excellent player and knew how to abuse splash and cannons like a baws

Let me just hop on a train to twat logic city and join you. Seriously though, who would tell JaeDong or Flash that just because they are good at SC1 melee, they have no place talking about SC2 melee. What the fuck..?
A) I've witnessed NinjaOtis crush players in this game, carry the team. I've also seen him lose to the same god mode units he has the option to pick.
B) Yah it does.



Oh ya ling beats rine and bat with hp and l3? Let me just mine zone you, let me stun you, let me web you, irad you, oh you try to escape with l4? My bad those mines zoned you just enough to catch you after l4 ended. Fuck you just escaped for real but luckily irad finished.. Ya bro. Wait but you said teammate comes? Naw he doesn't you already zoned with mines and used an l2 scourge stun. Maybe even sniped or kept ling stunned while focus firing teammate. How can you talk about ling beating bat 1v1 when lings chances of winning stem from bats chances of making a mistake.

Maxx is a genius at TS strat. He's smart at AoS strat. Why ignore? You were not the best player, you played when this version was horribly imbalanced and made current god mode units look like SUPER god mode units. I don't see strawmanning, I just see dodging by the devs. I mean look at BloodreaveZ, public scrub #1 given control of a map when he has little to no experience with TS1, with mapping and strategy at all. This guy hasn't logged in 2 weeks. How can we voice our concerns in game if your rep is AFK (probably hung himself from all the hate). He trashed summoner, mech, etc.

On to a more calm tone now..
Good point Shredder.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 2 2013, 1:39 am by BlackParade.

Jack's logic is sound. Just because you're a good player doesn't mean you're a good game designer. The vice versa is also true.



I'm not sure where you got the impression it was ling vs bat and rine. This is making my head swirl.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 1 2013, 11:22 pm by Sacrieur.

Uhh, you talking about NinjaOtis crushing in TS2 or TS1? Jaedong and Flash can't talk about SC2 melee until they prove themself in SC2. Given that they are now among the best in the world at SC2 I think they're qualified to talk about balance. Not game design though, they're not game designers. I don't ask skilled programmers for their advice on what strategy I should use in SCBW 1v1, nor do I ask skilled progamers for their advice on how to solve a particular programming problem. Hopefully your reading comprehension gets you through that one.
B no it doesn't. Sorry, you're wrong.
I don't see Maxx anywhere here, so I'm not ignoring him when he's not here to ignore. I was the best player at the time I played, ask anyone who played at that time.

I had no say in Bloodreavez joining the team. I like how you only say "good point" to people you agree with.

In a 1v1 game in TS1 C1F, barring any spawn shenanigans, mutant will beat assault because he can base race faster and assault doesn't have the DPS to be able to efficiently kill a mutant with sufficient HP/chaos mutation. I haven't played TS1 for a year but I'm more than willing to try it vs you if you like.